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		<title>Comment on “THE VARTHAMANAPPUSTHAKAM” written by Cathanar Thomman Paremmakkal by Dr.Paulose Nellikattil</title>
		<link>http://feeds.nasrani.net/~r/Discussion-NscNetwork/~3/SAiL-Cb5zt8/</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr.Paulose Nellikattil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 03:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nasrani.net/?p=844#comment-23418</guid>
		<description>When we moved from foreign rule to native rule we have lost many echoes of the community. Varthamanapusthakam which is written in 1585 contains the following things,

1)	Travelogue
2)	The history of Mar Thoma Nazrani Christians
3)	Details about the governance of European missionaries who ruled the church in Kerala
4)	The efforts undertaken by Bishop Mar Kairattil and Paremakkil Thoma Kathanar to resolve the issues faced by Catholic Syrians
5)	About the right of Kerala Syrian Catholics on self governance
6)	Interpretations and explanations on Bible

The contents from Chapter 17 to 30 ( 14 Chapters), Chapters 39 to 45 ( 6 Chapters) , Chapters 54 to 58 (  5 Chapters) and the last two 77 and 78 Chapters are travelogue.

That’s is 31,000 words in 150 pages, which consist of travelogue covering the Asia, Africa, South America and Europe  It is not known if any other travelogue which covers four continents existed in Asia in 16th century.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When we moved from foreign rule to native rule we have lost many echoes of the community. Varthamanapusthakam which is written in 1585 contains the following things,</p>
<p>1)	Travelogue<br />
2)	The history of Mar Thoma Nazrani Christians<br />
3)	Details about the governance of European missionaries who ruled the church in Kerala<br />
4)	The efforts undertaken by Bishop Mar Kairattil and Paremakkil Thoma Kathanar to resolve the issues faced by Catholic Syrians<br />
5)	About the right of Kerala Syrian Catholics on self governance<br />
6)	Interpretations and explanations on Bible</p>
<p>The contents from Chapter 17 to 30 ( 14 Chapters), Chapters 39 to 45 ( 6 Chapters) , Chapters 54 to 58 (  5 Chapters) and the last two 77 and 78 Chapters are travelogue.</p>
<p>That’s is 31,000 words in 150 pages, which consist of travelogue covering the Asia, Africa, South America and Europe  It is not known if any other travelogue which covers four continents existed in Asia in 16th century.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on Arrival of Thomas of Cana ( Bishop Thomas of Cana ?), History and references about Southist Community (Thekkumbhagar – Knanaya ) by Jacob John</title>
		<link>http://feeds.nasrani.net/~r/Discussion-NscNetwork/~3/u3IEV-DBov8/</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2010 20:57:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nasrani.net/2007/02/17/mar-thoma-the-apostolic-foundation-of-the-assyrian-church-and-the-christians-of-st-thomas-in-india/#comment-23393</guid>
		<description>Joseph,
If the priest is still around, he may be contacted and asked for more information. For the present, you can share the page in the book with us.  The scholastic level of the priest is important to establish.  Good old John Mathew sar can help in this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joseph,<br />
If the priest is still around, he may be contacted and asked for more information. For the present, you can share the page in the book with us.  The scholastic level of the priest is important to establish.  Good old John Mathew sar can help in this.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on Arrival of Thomas of Cana ( Bishop Thomas of Cana ?), History and references about Southist Community (Thekkumbhagar – Knanaya ) by joseph</title>
		<link>http://feeds.nasrani.net/~r/Discussion-NscNetwork/~3/NL_jxNR1Zcw/</link>
		<dc:creator>joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2010 17:26:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nasrani.net/2007/02/17/mar-thoma-the-apostolic-foundation-of-the-assyrian-church-and-the-christians-of-st-thomas-in-india/#comment-23392</guid>
		<description>today i was reading a book called knanite history heritage and culture it was written by a priest of the kottayam diocess so it may not be the most reliable source but in the book it claims that ancient knanaya songs and ancient cochin  jews songs are strikingly similar can sombody who is familiar with the the cochin jews and their history confirm this</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>today i was reading a book called knanite history heritage and culture it was written by a priest of the kottayam diocess so it may not be the most reliable source but in the book it claims that ancient knanaya songs and ancient cochin  jews songs are strikingly similar can sombody who is familiar with the the cochin jews and their history confirm this</p>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on ‘The Indian Christians of St. Thomas’ by Dr. Leslie Brown by Jacob John</title>
		<link>http://feeds.nasrani.net/~r/Discussion-NscNetwork/~3/-x_BMqLFM4I/</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Sep 2010 18:28:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nasrani.net/?p=697#comment-23317</guid>
		<description>Moonjely,

It is not just the Malayalee priests who do not know who a Nasrani is, but Nasranis themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moonjely,</p>
<p>It is not just the Malayalee priests who do not know who a Nasrani is, but Nasranis themselves.</p>
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		<title>Comment on ‘The Indian Christians of St. Thomas’ by Dr. Leslie Brown by Jacob John</title>
		<link>http://feeds.nasrani.net/~r/Discussion-NscNetwork/~3/ousgLf0SxLc/</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Sep 2010 18:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nasrani.net/?p=697#comment-23316</guid>
		<description>Iype,

I read your 'open letter'. God works in strange and mysterious ways. Why not start with honouring the 4th Commandment of keeping the Sabbath?  May I ask you what is preventing you to do so?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Iype,</p>
<p>I read your &#8216;open letter&#8217;. God works in strange and mysterious ways. Why not start with honouring the 4th Commandment of keeping the Sabbath?  May I ask you what is preventing you to do so?</p>
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		<title>Comment on “THE VARTHAMANAPPUSTHAKAM” written by Cathanar Thomman Paremmakkal by M Thomas Antony</title>
		<link>http://feeds.nasrani.net/~r/Discussion-NscNetwork/~3/4yjRyZuob2k/</link>
		<dc:creator>M Thomas Antony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Sep 2010 21:35:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nasrani.net/?p=844#comment-23293</guid>
		<description>Varthamana pusthakam gives an account of the affairs of Catholic Syriac group during a period when our community was proud of our identity and traditions.

If we study the history of Catholic Syriac group, we can see a gradual disintegration of the zeal to protect our identity and traditions when they moved from their foreign rulers to native rulers. 
 
The history shows that the united Saint Thomas Christians were resistant to the efforts of Portuguese   missionaries in Latinising them. We can see Cathanaar Joseph, the Indian, the chief priest of the church at Crangannore confronting with Alvares Panteado in AD 1516. Even at the time of Synod of Diamper, the Jesuites failed to implement the decisions of the synod.  Hence, Arch Bishop Ros had to convene the synod of Angamali in AD 1603, as many of the decisions of the synod of Diamper could not be implemented among Saint Thomas Christians. As those were also not acceptable, Ros had to yield further by the  introduction of Rosian statutes in AD 1606. 

Mar Simon, the then Chaldean Patriarch, who was explicitly in communion with Rome was anathematised in the Synod of Diamper and his name was banned in remembering in the Qurbana and introduced the name of the Pope instead. We can see in the Syro Malabar Qurbana taksa used until 1960, remembering the Chaldean Patriarch’s name after the name of the Pope which shows the resistance of our community and leaders against tampering our age old traditions and identity.

In 1895, we can see our community sending letters to Rome against the use of the term Syro Malabar as the title of the church  reqesting Rome to revert it to Syro Chaldean rite. It seems that Rome accepted the petition and  in 1953, when the diocese of Thalassery was established,  Rome has used the term Syro Chaldeac.

In the time of Paremmakkal Thomman Cathanaar  and Malpan Joseph   Cariatti, we can see our community was strong and were proud of our traditions and identity. The 72 palliyogams- general assembly-of Pazhayacoor decided to send Malpan  Cariatti and Paremmakkal Thomman cathanaar to Rome to complain about their grievances from the Carmelite Missionaries and to get  unity of Puthencoor and Pazhayacoor effected  by accepting Mar Thoma IV to Catholic Communion and accepting him as the Metropolitan of the united saint Thomas Christians. (For the Catholic Syriac group, this was the only way they can get a native hierarchy and for the Puthencoor faction, this was the option, without loosing their age old tradition and identity, Mar Thoma IV can become the united leader of the saint Thomas Christians, as Antiochian prelates were forcing them to adopt antiochian rite which was new in Malabar.)The palliyogams raised money for the travel. They were so brave to sent the delegation  to Rome against the power  of the hierarchy in Malabar at that time. 

Later, we can see  our community sending delegates to Chaldean Patriarchate  and Mar Paulose Pandari was consecrated as a Bishop in AD 1796,  upon further requests, Mar Thomas Rokos arrived  in AD 1861 and  Mar Elia  Melus in 1874. Arrival of Rokos and Melus prompted Rome to establish a separate hierarchy for Catholic Syriac group in 1887 with European Prelates initially and in 1896, native prelates. 

This is the point where the identity of our community started  to disintegrate. We could witness the native prelates competing each other for more latinisations  and gaining superior positions and titles. Where is the power and zeal of the General Assembly of 72 parishes in AD 1778  when we are in 2010 with our nominal assembly where we simply raise hands for our leaders who do not know what our identity is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Varthamana pusthakam gives an account of the affairs of Catholic Syriac group during a period when our community was proud of our identity and traditions.</p>
<p>If we study the history of Catholic Syriac group, we can see a gradual disintegration of the zeal to protect our identity and traditions when they moved from their foreign rulers to native rulers. </p>
<p>The history shows that the united Saint Thomas Christians were resistant to the efforts of Portuguese   missionaries in Latinising them. We can see Cathanaar Joseph, the Indian, the chief priest of the church at Crangannore confronting with Alvares Panteado in AD 1516. Even at the time of Synod of Diamper, the Jesuites failed to implement the decisions of the synod.  Hence, Arch Bishop Ros had to convene the synod of Angamali in AD 1603, as many of the decisions of the synod of Diamper could not be implemented among Saint Thomas Christians. As those were also not acceptable, Ros had to yield further by the  introduction of Rosian statutes in AD 1606. </p>
<p>Mar Simon, the then Chaldean Patriarch, who was explicitly in communion with Rome was anathematised in the Synod of Diamper and his name was banned in remembering in the Qurbana and introduced the name of the Pope instead. We can see in the Syro Malabar Qurbana taksa used until 1960, remembering the Chaldean Patriarch’s name after the name of the Pope which shows the resistance of our community and leaders against tampering our age old traditions and identity.</p>
<p>In 1895, we can see our community sending letters to Rome against the use of the term Syro Malabar as the title of the church  reqesting Rome to revert it to Syro Chaldean rite. It seems that Rome accepted the petition and  in 1953, when the diocese of Thalassery was established,  Rome has used the term Syro Chaldeac.</p>
<p>In the time of Paremmakkal Thomman Cathanaar  and Malpan Joseph   Cariatti, we can see our community was strong and were proud of our traditions and identity. The 72 palliyogams- general assembly-of Pazhayacoor decided to send Malpan  Cariatti and Paremmakkal Thomman cathanaar to Rome to complain about their grievances from the Carmelite Missionaries and to get  unity of Puthencoor and Pazhayacoor effected  by accepting Mar Thoma IV to Catholic Communion and accepting him as the Metropolitan of the united saint Thomas Christians. (For the Catholic Syriac group, this was the only way they can get a native hierarchy and for the Puthencoor faction, this was the option, without loosing their age old tradition and identity, Mar Thoma IV can become the united leader of the saint Thomas Christians, as Antiochian prelates were forcing them to adopt antiochian rite which was new in Malabar.)The palliyogams raised money for the travel. They were so brave to sent the delegation  to Rome against the power  of the hierarchy in Malabar at that time. </p>
<p>Later, we can see  our community sending delegates to Chaldean Patriarchate  and Mar Paulose Pandari was consecrated as a Bishop in AD 1796,  upon further requests, Mar Thomas Rokos arrived  in AD 1861 and  Mar Elia  Melus in 1874. Arrival of Rokos and Melus prompted Rome to establish a separate hierarchy for Catholic Syriac group in 1887 with European Prelates initially and in 1896, native prelates. </p>
<p>This is the point where the identity of our community started  to disintegrate. We could witness the native prelates competing each other for more latinisations  and gaining superior positions and titles. Where is the power and zeal of the General Assembly of 72 parishes in AD 1778  when we are in 2010 with our nominal assembly where we simply raise hands for our leaders who do not know what our identity is.</p>
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		<title>Comment on ‘The Indian Christians of St. Thomas’ by Dr. Leslie Brown by Edward Nobel Bisamunyu</title>
		<link>http://feeds.nasrani.net/~r/Discussion-NscNetwork/~3/ZoNI7CWPXGE/</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward Nobel Bisamunyu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 13:25:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nasrani.net/?p=697#comment-23226</guid>
		<description>I am thrilled to see your kind comments about Dr Leslie Brown, who was a very dear family friend in Uganda. Dr and Mrs (Dr) Brown were instrumental in my family's early life in Uganda. They worked very hard indeed to help to free my father from the yoke of alcoholism, including looking after my mother for several weeks in their home in Kampala after she had given birth to my sister and while my father recovered in hospital. I cannot say enough about them or their kind daughter, Alison. I saw them often during their retirement in south England and they always mentioned Kerala. I feel that Uganda and Kerala were two deeply blessed places for having had the Brown family in common!


In God's abundant love,


Edward</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am thrilled to see your kind comments about Dr Leslie Brown, who was a very dear family friend in Uganda. Dr and Mrs (Dr) Brown were instrumental in my family&#8217;s early life in Uganda. They worked very hard indeed to help to free my father from the yoke of alcoholism, including looking after my mother for several weeks in their home in Kampala after she had given birth to my sister and while my father recovered in hospital. I cannot say enough about them or their kind daughter, Alison. I saw them often during their retirement in south England and they always mentioned Kerala. I feel that Uganda and Kerala were two deeply blessed places for having had the Brown family in common!</p>
<p>In God&#8217;s abundant love,</p>
<p>Edward</p>
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		<title>Comment on Arrival of Thomas of Cana ( Bishop Thomas of Cana ?), History and references about Southist Community (Thekkumbhagar – Knanaya ) by rl</title>
		<link>http://feeds.nasrani.net/~r/Discussion-NscNetwork/~3/rQZ3H5C8I7Y/</link>
		<dc:creator>rl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:41:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Other than that one evangalical church family i know they are my aunts neighbors 
They are the ones i ve seen that they had worst non indian features.
They been leading a very normal life that they used to have cows or they used to help neighboring house for their living which the time i knew them in early days
now their son and daughter grew up get married to  and their sons went aboard.
now their parent re in their home and one of their youger daughter  and their grand father litterly had blound hair and all of them have a fair skin really seems a non indian skin tone. 
How do we define these kind of phenomen. we goin to become really a failure if a community stood up and tried to define their stories.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Other than that one evangalical church family i know they are my aunts neighbors<br />
They are the ones i ve seen that they had worst non indian features.<br />
They been leading a very normal life that they used to have cows or they used to help neighboring house for their living which the time i knew them in early days<br />
now their son and daughter grew up get married to  and their sons went aboard.<br />
now their parent re in their home and one of their youger daughter  and their grand father litterly had blound hair and all of them have a fair skin really seems a non indian skin tone.<br />
How do we define these kind of phenomen. we goin to become really a failure if a community stood up and tried to define their stories.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Arrival of Thomas of Cana ( Bishop Thomas of Cana ?), History and references about Southist Community (Thekkumbhagar – Knanaya ) by rl</title>
		<link>http://feeds.nasrani.net/~r/Discussion-NscNetwork/~3/kOCspog3JFs/</link>
		<dc:creator>rl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:57:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nasrani.net/2007/02/17/mar-thoma-the-apostolic-foundation-of-the-assyrian-church-and-the-christians-of-st-thomas-in-india/#comment-23129</guid>
		<description>I am not refusing the above comment but i am just saying what i knew. So my the knanites in Ranny which i directly heard from them they are the community inspired by anthiochean. or their whispering talks like we came from syria. 

They really seems to be proud of jacobites sects that they are the ones are orginal or rest of their groups are intemarried as different sections of orthodox or jacobites or others are brahimns. 
.
regarding black jews what my opnion was that these community could not even accepted any dravidianism even if they community obviously showing that presence. 

It like what i observed as that there are some people are white or syrian looks or their skin types really seems that they may came from syria.

Such few type only qualify to me that they are little different from the so called community called knanaya.Majority ot people featured among the communities  same as ordinary malayaless and they culture, behaiviour, life syles does not even qulitfy to them that they are syrians.

but if we observe they r people as a whole nasranis has surprising features of a non indian skin tone or they hair and features can be seen which seems to me are west asians.

I dont think that nasani identity is just the people who are belong to syrain church or just having suryanism. Even pentacoastal pastor can be a nasrani and he knows his identiy through his biblical passions.
I have seen that and they are not belong to none of the knanaya community. and they dont have any clue about knanayas. Or none of them dont even worry about these community at all.

There was an event even notted that a little argument the soutish people like in the other side of the river pumba and the northist lived in the other side
.
But once i remember there was an rss problem arised regarding nilikcal problem both knanites and nasranis stood up. so for me things are really clear to me without expecting an answer from someone. but i thought i just want to speak out a littlebit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not refusing the above comment but i am just saying what i knew. So my the knanites in Ranny which i directly heard from them they are the community inspired by anthiochean. or their whispering talks like we came from syria. </p>
<p>They really seems to be proud of jacobites sects that they are the ones are orginal or rest of their groups are intemarried as different sections of orthodox or jacobites or others are brahimns.<br />
.<br />
regarding black jews what my opnion was that these community could not even accepted any dravidianism even if they community obviously showing that presence. </p>
<p>It like what i observed as that there are some people are white or syrian looks or their skin types really seems that they may came from syria.</p>
<p>Such few type only qualify to me that they are little different from the so called community called knanaya.Majority ot people featured among the communities  same as ordinary malayaless and they culture, behaiviour, life syles does not even qulitfy to them that they are syrians.</p>
<p>but if we observe they r people as a whole nasranis has surprising features of a non indian skin tone or they hair and features can be seen which seems to me are west asians.</p>
<p>I dont think that nasani identity is just the people who are belong to syrain church or just having suryanism. Even pentacoastal pastor can be a nasrani and he knows his identiy through his biblical passions.<br />
I have seen that and they are not belong to none of the knanaya community. and they dont have any clue about knanayas. Or none of them dont even worry about these community at all.</p>
<p>There was an event even notted that a little argument the soutish people like in the other side of the river pumba and the northist lived in the other side<br />
.<br />
But once i remember there was an rss problem arised regarding nilikcal problem both knanites and nasranis stood up. so for me things are really clear to me without expecting an answer from someone. but i thought i just want to speak out a littlebit.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Arrival of Thomas of Cana ( Bishop Thomas of Cana ?), History and references about Southist Community (Thekkumbhagar – Knanaya ) by John Mathew</title>
		<link>http://feeds.nasrani.net/~r/Discussion-NscNetwork/~3/JPbi5EXK9OQ/</link>
		<dc:creator>John Mathew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nasrani.net/2007/02/17/mar-thoma-the-apostolic-foundation-of-the-assyrian-church-and-the-christians-of-st-thomas-in-india/#comment-23126</guid>
		<description>Interesting question, but not difficult to address. Why does a heterogeneous population of racially and culturally mixed people (us Indians) become so averse to race mixing when we emigrate? I don't know, but the phenomena obviously exists. Perhaps the black jews converted for political reasons, but wanted to remain separate. Or perhaps the existing christians didn't want to accept the newcomers: nasranis don't seem to like converts very much even to this day (despite all this endogamy/nonendogamy talk, both groups are basically endomagous, not mixing with each other).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting question, but not difficult to address. Why does a heterogeneous population of racially and culturally mixed people (us Indians) become so averse to race mixing when we emigrate? I don&#8217;t know, but the phenomena obviously exists. Perhaps the black jews converted for political reasons, but wanted to remain separate. Or perhaps the existing christians didn&#8217;t want to accept the newcomers: nasranis don&#8217;t seem to like converts very much even to this day (despite all this endogamy/nonendogamy talk, both groups are basically endomagous, not mixing with each other).</p>
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		<title>Comment on Arrival of Thomas of Cana ( Bishop Thomas of Cana ?), History and references about Southist Community (Thekkumbhagar – Knanaya ) by joseph</title>
		<link>http://feeds.nasrani.net/~r/Discussion-NscNetwork/~3/04DMI6AUtqI/</link>
		<dc:creator>joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Aug 2010 17:54:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>i was talking about how the Portuguese recorded a division amongst the local christians and that their was a violent rivalry between the two parties so we can assume that they were the southists and the northists. so if john mathews theory that southists are converted black jews then why would a group of non endogamous christians( black jews ) that became endogamouse have a rivalry with a non endogamouse group of christians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i was talking about how the Portuguese recorded a division amongst the local christians and that their was a violent rivalry between the two parties so we can assume that they were the southists and the northists. so if john mathews theory that southists are converted black jews then why would a group of non endogamous christians( black jews ) that became endogamouse have a rivalry with a non endogamouse group of christians.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Arrival of Thomas of Cana ( Bishop Thomas of Cana ?), History and references about Southist Community (Thekkumbhagar – Knanaya ) by Jacob John</title>
		<link>http://feeds.nasrani.net/~r/Discussion-NscNetwork/~3/vmQ1Tx2tWhg/</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:49:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Rivalry between the Black Jews and the Northist's?  Where did you pick this information up? Kindly explain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rivalry between the Black Jews and the Northist&#8217;s?  Where did you pick this information up? Kindly explain.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Tiger and the Syrian Christians: Tipu Sultan’s ‘Padayottam’ by Vincent Fernandes</title>
		<link>http://feeds.nasrani.net/~r/Discussion-NscNetwork/~3/LL4xWGRENSQ/</link>
		<dc:creator>Vincent Fernandes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Aug 2010 07:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nasrani.net/2007/05/06/the-tiger-and-the-syrian-christians-tipu-sultans-padayottam/#comment-23103</guid>
		<description>Thank you Georgekutty,
For highlighting the plight of nearly 60,000 Mangalorean Catholics (Men, Women and even Children) who were taken captive upon the explicit instructions of Tipu (this he has recorded in his diary) and were herded to Srirangapattana, where they languished for 15 long years and only 10,000 survived to return to Mangalore as refugees. James Scurry referes to 'Malabar Christians, and money borrowed by Gen. Matthews' He must be referring to Mangalore Catholics as Matthews reached Bedenore but before that, he needed food grain and money as he wasted time and money taking smaller forts that were not in the agenda. He may have likely to have borrowed grain and money from Mangalorean Catholics as well, as at that time, they were wealthy landlords, agriculturists.

Matthew was sent on a specific mission from Bombay, to land south of Goa, proceed to take Bedanore and then take Mangalore and proceed to Mysore, the plan was to unseat Hyder (who was dead by then and the Brits did not know of this), and another contingent from Madras would proceed, as per the plan the Rani of the deposed Rajah of Mysore had secretly made with the British to unseat Tipu. 

The very fact that Tipu also fought fellow Muslim rulers, had French artillery contingent, sought Nepolean's help to unseat British and the British at that time, took over ports in Goa and Anjediva island near Karwar as a precaution against Nepolean, does not make one much of a patriot and at that time, there was no sense of India as a nation, there were too many principalities, who were always quarrelling among themselves anyway and the British subdued and brought vast area under one rule.

Can some one tell me, what is 'Padayottam' (is this mean to say 'to beat a hasty retreat' on foot?), but I do not know who did the 'padayottam!? 

About the St. Thomas Cross, I feel many are confused with St. Thomas and Mar Thoma Cana who arrived from Syria, who must have brought the cross and introduced Syriac liturgy? Thomas Christians were supposedly converted by St. Thomas, the Apostle, but until the arrival of Mar Thoma with his followers, the earlier Christian converts may have almost forgotton the earlier rituals. Since the Thomas Christians of Malabar were ruled by the Chaldean Church (which is said to have received Nestorianism in the 5th century) from 7th century until 16th century, many people suspect Nestorianism in the Malabar Church.   But the Chaldean church was subject to Pope.

Also, the inscription in Arabic on the cross (Mar Thoma Sleeba (saleeb=cross) offers the following reading: "In punishment by the cross was the suffering of this one, Who is the true Christ, God above and Guide ever pure."

British Museum has a large collection consisting of several folio volumes containing manuscripts, letters, reports, etc., of Jesuit missions in India and elsewhere; among these in additional volume 9853, beginning with the leaf 86 in pencil and 525 in ink, there is a "Report" on the "Serra" (the name by which the Portuguese designated Malabar), written in Portuguese by a Jesuit missionary, bearing the date 1604 but not signed by the writer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Georgekutty,<br />
For highlighting the plight of nearly 60,000 Mangalorean Catholics (Men, Women and even Children) who were taken captive upon the explicit instructions of Tipu (this he has recorded in his diary) and were herded to Srirangapattana, where they languished for 15 long years and only 10,000 survived to return to Mangalore as refugees. James Scurry referes to &#8216;Malabar Christians, and money borrowed by Gen. Matthews&#8217; He must be referring to Mangalore Catholics as Matthews reached Bedenore but before that, he needed food grain and money as he wasted time and money taking smaller forts that were not in the agenda. He may have likely to have borrowed grain and money from Mangalorean Catholics as well, as at that time, they were wealthy landlords, agriculturists.</p>
<p>Matthew was sent on a specific mission from Bombay, to land south of Goa, proceed to take Bedanore and then take Mangalore and proceed to Mysore, the plan was to unseat Hyder (who was dead by then and the Brits did not know of this), and another contingent from Madras would proceed, as per the plan the Rani of the deposed Rajah of Mysore had secretly made with the British to unseat Tipu. </p>
<p>The very fact that Tipu also fought fellow Muslim rulers, had French artillery contingent, sought Nepolean&#8217;s help to unseat British and the British at that time, took over ports in Goa and Anjediva island near Karwar as a precaution against Nepolean, does not make one much of a patriot and at that time, there was no sense of India as a nation, there were too many principalities, who were always quarrelling among themselves anyway and the British subdued and brought vast area under one rule.</p>
<p>Can some one tell me, what is &#8216;Padayottam&#8217; (is this mean to say &#8216;to beat a hasty retreat&#8217; on foot?), but I do not know who did the &#8216;padayottam!? </p>
<p>About the St. Thomas Cross, I feel many are confused with St. Thomas and Mar Thoma Cana who arrived from Syria, who must have brought the cross and introduced Syriac liturgy? Thomas Christians were supposedly converted by St. Thomas, the Apostle, but until the arrival of Mar Thoma with his followers, the earlier Christian converts may have almost forgotton the earlier rituals. Since the Thomas Christians of Malabar were ruled by the Chaldean Church (which is said to have received Nestorianism in the 5th century) from 7th century until 16th century, many people suspect Nestorianism in the Malabar Church.   But the Chaldean church was subject to Pope.</p>
<p>Also, the inscription in Arabic on the cross (Mar Thoma Sleeba (saleeb=cross) offers the following reading: &#8220;In punishment by the cross was the suffering of this one, Who is the true Christ, God above and Guide ever pure.&#8221;</p>
<p>British Museum has a large collection consisting of several folio volumes containing manuscripts, letters, reports, etc., of Jesuit missions in India and elsewhere; among these in additional volume 9853, beginning with the leaf 86 in pencil and 525 in ink, there is a &#8220;Report&#8221; on the &#8220;Serra&#8221; (the name by which the Portuguese designated Malabar), written in Portuguese by a Jesuit missionary, bearing the date 1604 but not signed by the writer.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on Arrival of Thomas of Cana ( Bishop Thomas of Cana ?), History and references about Southist Community (Thekkumbhagar – Knanaya ) by rl</title>
		<link>http://feeds.nasrani.net/~r/Discussion-NscNetwork/~3/3BvuZV7sH9k/</link>
		<dc:creator>rl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Aug 2010 05:07:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nasrani.net/2007/02/17/mar-thoma-the-apostolic-foundation-of-the-assyrian-church-and-the-christians-of-st-thomas-in-india/#comment-23102</guid>
		<description>i may say some thing i recently come to know that let me say i m outsider not belong to any of those syrian chruch. and what the knanayas and the orthodox are from one of the west asians but knanayas say we are not mixed but othodox say we are patrneally westasisn which the church belong to and we either married locally or orthodox collected their convert in those syrian church. i m thinking that the early ancient nasranis who can be jewish, brahimns or non syrian but persians may not belong to syrian church, because st thomas also evengalised Umera in persia and conversion story in kerala and umera is similar.. so they might have been had different form of christianity early times.one said there had been some nestorians adopted lot of hindu styles and even had hindu syle of  worship.  but at the same time sabbath and pessiah seems to celebrate. i dont think that we can give knanaya an external jewish ancestroy other than they very much saying their inspriation of mar ignious saka of anthiochian
.so they could be a semitic people just close to israel but once they got in malabar turned out become jewish. still early nasranis might have joined may be csi, evenglical vervad, ,marthomites or roman catholic that they did not seems to become part of syrian chruch even after coonon kurshu sathyam. but the things is these syrian orthodox familes daughter could married to nasranis hence they could be some suryanism in the mother side and many could cofused regarding this matter, instead patrneal side is valid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i may say some thing i recently come to know that let me say i m outsider not belong to any of those syrian chruch. and what the knanayas and the orthodox are from one of the west asians but knanayas say we are not mixed but othodox say we are patrneally westasisn which the church belong to and we either married locally or orthodox collected their convert in those syrian church. i m thinking that the early ancient nasranis who can be jewish, brahimns or non syrian but persians may not belong to syrian church, because st thomas also evengalised Umera in persia and conversion story in kerala and umera is similar.. so they might have been had different form of christianity early times.one said there had been some nestorians adopted lot of hindu styles and even had hindu syle of  worship.  but at the same time sabbath and pessiah seems to celebrate. i dont think that we can give knanaya an external jewish ancestroy other than they very much saying their inspriation of mar ignious saka of anthiochian<br />
.so they could be a semitic people just close to israel but once they got in malabar turned out become jewish. still early nasranis might have joined may be csi, evenglical vervad, ,marthomites or roman catholic that they did not seems to become part of syrian chruch even after coonon kurshu sathyam. but the things is these syrian orthodox familes daughter could married to nasranis hence they could be some suryanism in the mother side and many could cofused regarding this matter, instead patrneal side is valid.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Arrival of Thomas of Cana ( Bishop Thomas of Cana ?), History and references about Southist Community (Thekkumbhagar – Knanaya ) by joseph</title>
		<link>http://feeds.nasrani.net/~r/Discussion-NscNetwork/~3/Y8I3_1piqXY/</link>
		<dc:creator>joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:04:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nasrani.net/2007/02/17/mar-thoma-the-apostolic-foundation-of-the-assyrian-church-and-the-christians-of-st-thomas-in-india/#comment-23089</guid>
		<description>pardon me for being a little behind on knanaya history but can one of u clarify if the copper plates said to have been granted to knai thomman by cheramar perumal have ever been retained and examined.

it would also be greatly apreciated if one of you could clarify about the genetic testing done on knanaites and non knanaites because it seems like their was a discrepancy about where the L3 marker is found.

and another thing i was wondering is that if knanites are black Jews that converted to Christianity in the 15th/16th centuries then why did Portuguese missionaries and other foreign observers notice a division amongst the native Christians. if the st. Thomas Christians openly accepted converts and intermarried with them than why was their a rivalry between the black Jews and the northists?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>pardon me for being a little behind on knanaya history but can one of u clarify if the copper plates said to have been granted to knai thomman by cheramar perumal have ever been retained and examined.</p>
<p>it would also be greatly apreciated if one of you could clarify about the genetic testing done on knanaites and non knanaites because it seems like their was a discrepancy about where the L3 marker is found.</p>
<p>and another thing i was wondering is that if knanites are black Jews that converted to Christianity in the 15th/16th centuries then why did Portuguese missionaries and other foreign observers notice a division amongst the native Christians. if the st. Thomas Christians openly accepted converts and intermarried with them than why was their a rivalry between the black Jews and the northists?</p>
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